Liz Nable 0:00
If in doubt, be generous. No, it's not a feel good quote from Instagram or something you'd hear coming from the mouth of a motivational speaker, or life coach. It's the mantra company wide at bird's nest, the multimillion dollar women's fashion empire, built by former IBM management consultant, and now sheep farmer's wife, among other titles, Jane Kay born and bred in Cooma, but a townie by her own admission, Jane studied commerce at the University of New South Wales in Sydney, and vowed never to marry a farmer. But fate intervened when she met Oli, a merino wool farmer, and Jane found herself back in Cooma, with a new hobby on the land and keen to start a business of her own. Ironically, when Jane first purchased a retail business on the high street of Cooma, then under a different name, she had no particular interest in fashion. The daughter of an accountant, Jane had a knack for numbers. But what she did discover, as she found herself in daily changeroom conversation with her customers was that she was passionate about inspiring confidence in her clients. So she made it her mission then and there to discover new ways to solve their wardrobe dilemmas using the most insane level of customer service, listening to feedback, and utilising the latest technology. With 70% of bird's nest revenue coming from return customers, it's safe to say Jane's unconventional approach worked. In fact, I'd say maybe that's a slight understatement. Birdsnest doubled its size each year for the first three years since launching in late 2008. And they're now 30 times bigger than they were when they started. And they now employ over 150 Fabulous nesters or team members to anyone who's not familiar with the in house bird's nest terminology. I've interviewed lots of different business owners in my time. But what I found fascinating about Jane is that bird's nest has been so successful, yet she never really talks about being driven by profit. Trust me, I tried. She's almost done the opposite to what most business owners do, which is spend a tonne of time and money in parts of the business that traditionally don't make money. Yet, it's that laser focus on team culture, customer experience and sustainability that's ended up driving her profits through the roof. I mean, there's a lifetime return policy on every purchase at bird's nest. Surely there's got to be a lesson here for all of us. Jane Kay is truly a unicorn human in the retail fashion business. And I can't wait for you to hear our chat. Hello, I'm Liz Nable and you're listening to Nable My Business, The Podcast. When I first started in small business almost 10 years ago, I had no idea what I was getting into. You see, my background was in the media. I had spent 15 years as a television news journalist and reporter working at several major networks in Australia. And then as a freelancer in the US and around the world. I spent years dividing my time between working long shifts on a news desk and travelling the world chasing stories. It was unpredictable and exciting. Until it wasn't anymore. I decided I wanted a life where I was in charge of what happened next. And where I was working to build my own empire, not someone else's. I also never wanted to work a midnight new shift again. Now, I don't have to. There was a lot I had to learn about running my own business. But one thing I already had in the bag was how to get media coverage and free PR. I knew what the media wanted. I knew the secret formula for what made news and I knew how to leverage those organisations to build my business, get more exposure and ultimately make more sales. During my decade of building my business, I have managed to get featured in almost every major news outlet in the country. I've been interviewed on television countless times had personal profiles written up in women's magazines, done point of view pieces for large newspapers, and be listed in top 100 List Women in Business and in my industry. And I've never spent a single cent on PR. I took that knowledge for granted until it dawned on me one day that I could teach what I knew to other businesses, let them in on the secret and they too could build their businesses, leveraging the media and gaining free PR. They could use my insights in the industry and my behind the scenes experience and take their business from Best Kept Secret to well known brand simply by following my formula. Welcome to enable my business the podcast
welcome Jane to the show. We are really excited to talk to you today you have been on our Hit List of guests for the day won't be this podcast so thanks for taking the time to have a chat with us today.
Unknown Speaker 5:09
Thanks so much Liz and I am equally excited that you are heading out into the regions to visit us
Liz Nable 5:16
yeah I've always had a really strong affiliation with regional regional Australia I you know, I'm not a country girl by any stretch but I do love a road trip so I'm excited to get out there and meet all these incredible women I've been talking to now I know you've talked told your story the story of habits this came to be many people in many listeners might already be familiar with it, but I would love to hear a bit about how you got started. I know you were a townie not a city girl but not a full country girl growing up and you never you by your own admission you've never had a passion for fashion. So you've built this incredible you know $30 million you know retail fashion empire tell me a bit about how that came to be and a little bit about your journey to where you are now.
Jane Cay 6:10
It seems a bit of an accident that I ended up in fashion as such because like any other girl I love to dress up I you know like to feel good in my clothes but I I didn't study fashion I don't I didn't follow fashion and I think when you find yourself living in the middle of like nowhere you know an hour and a half I often quite an hour and a half round trip to get a carton of milk Milk people. We've got a very big freezer. I knew I had to adapt and you know I did fall into retail and I fell in love with the magic of what was happening on that shop floor and I guess the rest is history in terms of of where it went from there.
Liz Nable 6:49
So you found yourself in Cooma married to a farmer and you you didn't start the business from scratch so to speak. Did you you purchased an existing business on that on the main street of Cooma?
Unknown Speaker 7:01
yes that's right Hi country Outfitters and it was it was just a legendary shop growing up. We all you know many purchase many an outfit for a picnic race from High Country Outfitters. And the very gorgeous Kate Ogilvy Kate Mary Ogilvy owned that business and Kate was kind of the, the face and the founder and she she had been running that business for 25 years. She's quite an incredible woman. And yeah, so we were lucky enough to come in and purchase something. So we had, we actually had people walk in the door that next day, you know, it's really, really unusual for brand new business to have customers from day one and already have such a great community of followers. So we've certainly evolved a lot since you know, selling horse bits, didn't know anything about horses, we actually had part of it was a salary part of was kind of a rural merchandise. And then the bulk of it was fashion. And you know, the accountant in me very quickly worked out that was the part of the business that was also working. So tell me
Liz Nable 7:59
about what what strengths do you feel you brought to the business? Because obviously, you know, you mentioned that you did enjoy fashion like any woman did, but you didn't you weren't trained in it, you weren't particularly passionate about it, but to take that business and evolve it to, you know, over time, obviously, but to where it is today. What strengths do you feel you brought to that to that shop, to see that the opportunities and the possibilities of evolving into something more?
Unknown Speaker 8:28
I think I think I bought a good dose of curiosity and the ability to come into something and sit back and look at it for a little while I'd been working in consulting in, in Sydney in in a sort of capacity where you walked into a business and before you tried to do anything, you really tried to understand that business really well. We call it issue based consulting, you know, you'd go in and look, you weren't sure what the problem was, and you weren't sure what the solution was and you had to try and sort of formed hypothesis around this business. So I think I was like an analyst. You know, I'd studied commerce and I had a background in technology in the end, which turned out to be quite helpful. But I think that the I think coming in quietly I'm gonna you know, just those first few weeks that party who ran that store is still was a store had been a store manager for quite some time she's still with us. She She She is our creative director. She does all our buying I mean she is the fact she's the fashion in creamer she should be have been born in Paris she is she's, she's got that bit worked out what I've brought, I think was was systems and structure and and and just ask the questions. You know, how does this like I think I just asked a lot of questions in those early days. And just got to really know the business inside and out before we did anything and made any changes whatsoever.
Liz Nable 9:47
And that I mean, that's incredible that you've got a staff member who has So how long has Heidi been with the company? It's actually
Unknown Speaker 9:53
Poor girl she's often having to explain how it's pi with a PI is how she's sorry You want to ask called Piedi. But
Liz Nable 10:01
Peidi Wow,
Unknown Speaker 10:03
unique in herself. She's just the most talented, incredible person I'm very lucky to have been, you know, for us to be each other as being birds for all this time. And I think, sorry, what was the question? Because I got distracted by Heidi.
Liz Nable 10:20
I know. And I'm embarrassed that I call her Heidi and her name is actually Piedi. How long has she been with the company now?
Unknown Speaker 10:27
Well, we started out in 2004. So first of August 2004, we took over the business, which happens to be the horses birthday, and also her partner, her partner's birthday. So I know that so 2004. So that's a long time. That's gonna be a long journey soon.
Liz Nable 10:43
Yeah, long time.
Unknown Speaker 10:45
That we still love each other. I think I mean, I think we do. Well, that
Liz Nable 10:49
I mean, that says something about the culture in the business today, that she stayed for so long, but I will get to that a little bit later. So you've gone from sort of selling horse bits and maybes, sometimes saddles and a little bit of retail. And you saw, you saw the opportunity in the retail that that that was the best performing part of the business. How did that evolve into bird's nest and why the name birds nest in the bird theme?
Unknown Speaker 11:14
Yeah, so I mean, in those early days, we actually for a period of time, we own a menswear store as well. So for four years, and at that time, when we bought the menswear store, we'll fit thought, Okay, well, this is great, we'll put all the men's stuff over here, we'll put all the women's stuff over here. And we'll create two quite different businesses, and they'll be lots of synergies, we can share coathangers. And we even at one stage had an internet cord running between the two buildings, the main street, so we shared the internet. So So we had these two businesses running and we knew we had to rename the business, I was actually really terrified about renaming a business because it has such a strong following this great businesses that have been there for so many years. So it was so many names are being thrown around, as soon as, as soon as the bird's nest was said, we all just totally knew it was it, we just, we just felt it straightaway. And I think wasn't overly strategic. But it's just grown to mean more and more over time. I think the reason we're probably so drawn to it at the beginning is because this sense of a nest being a kind of like safe and nurturing place. And that was kind of we knew that that's where magic happens, you know, if you bring women into a place that felt that had the right environment and the right, you know, that, that that, that it was a place where people could grow. And so I think business was very much about kind of building community that starts with our own team, and certainly then extends not only to our customers, but we have these amazing relationships with our suppliers. And I think that's what makes the whole thing tick. And it just, it has turned out to encompass all of that. I also think it doesn't take itself too seriously as a name. And we try not to take ourselves too seriously. I think sometimes, you know, it doesn't matter what you do in life, things get stressful. Like, definitely, it's so easy to get things out of perspective. And you know, quite often will we need to remind ourselves Hey, guys, like, no one's open on the table here.
Liz Nable 13:12
Yeah, that's right. We're not Yeah, we're not curing terminal illness. Yeah.
Unknown Speaker 13:15
Yeah. So I think, you know, it doesn't take itself too seriously either. So that we like lots of things about it.
Liz Nable 13:21
And the bird's nest idea obviously lends itself to so many different interpretations like, oh, my
Unknown Speaker 13:27
gosh, the analogy, I mean, there is just nothing in our place that doesn't have a bird slash tree slash something, you know, the name for it.
Liz Nable 13:35
So you're Big Bird, what are the employees?
Unknown Speaker 13:39
Well, "nesters" or, you know, because we were the business goals for a long time, like, you know, law such and such in the business because we're realising that, you know, we have to evolve, that's no longer really, you know, there's lots of not only a bit, you know, well, there's 10% men in our team, you know, and we have members of our team that don't identify as either so you know, we realised that we had to take gender out of the story so nesters is a good one. And of course birds are unisex so that's can be any you know, so yeah, so I think yeah, we have like our career tree and we have like birdsong and we have like there's just all your
Liz Nable 14:15
all your design lines a bird themed birds as
Unknown Speaker 14:19
well of course so we have moonlight bird for after dark and we have natural for birds for all our natural and boho bird. Yeah, so we're
Liz Nable 14:27
really invested you are invested in the bird theme, I love it. kind of person. And I obviously you know, you mentioned before you you love the term business because of you know, it represented this nurturing, safe place where people could come or women could come mostly women, I think your your clientele could come in and feel like they were being judged and you know, they could, you know, buy buy things that made them feel good and they could walk out and feel good. feel feel good, the clothing was represented more than just a purchase. Is that right? And you sort of saw that early on?
Unknown Speaker 15:08
I certainly, I mean, I think we realised quite early that we weren't really in a product business, we were in a service business. And that, yeah, there was there was so much in, in, in, in creating that the right environment for women and creating a space. I mean, it's such a vulnerable, like, as women, we we are judged on our parents from pretty much the moment, we can put a dress on and everyone says, you know, don't look pretty in that little in that dress. And I think, you know, so we, we know that change rooms are a really vulnerable space for women. And we we know that fashion can be quite unaccessible. So that you'll notice that all our models smile, and that we, you know, some some very basic things we did early on. And then as we've evolved, we realised that, you know, we had, we had a time where we worked very closely with Tori BraMford, who had the Embrace Movement and the global body image movement. And I think that really helped us look in the mirror again, you know, around how we present women to women. You know, we were doing things like we thought were pretty innocent, like, you know, whitening, whitening up people's teeth, we could see their smile, because we that made them look even heavier, but then all of a sudden, we're looking at our teeth, or our teeth not that wide. So, like, that's it like, and so, you know, we hadn't been able to do any photoshopping of anyone's bodies in any way. I mean, we weren't changing really shapes, but even those sorts of things we like we have a pledge not to photoshop. We, you know, we try and, you know, take imagery of women in different shapes and sizes, we had an amazing Lisa Cox visited us last week, who's an advocate for people with disabilities and how we can all you know, design our clothing and our businesses and things better to to cater for everyone and everybody. So I think, you know, it's a constant, it's a constant learning journey. But yeah, to create a space, you know, where people feel included, is certainly been part of the journey all the way through.
Liz Nable 17:15
I guess it's quite doesn't to me, you know, buying a retail business on the street of a country town. Doesn't, you've obviously had a big vision, whether consciously or unconsciously, for what, what you would do with that, because it's quite, quite, you've got quite a lot of foresight to see that it was more eight, particularly because you weren't fashion, you didn't have the passion for fashion. It's pretty amazing that you saw that. Not necessarily just as an opportunity, but that, but what you were doing was more than just women buying clothing off you. I find that really interesting. I think
Unknown Speaker 17:53
it's I think it's what gave me true meaning in the business. I think, you know, I, I started out in the business, because I wanted to create an interesting career for myself in a regional area, and it grew, you know, then I found this, oh, my gosh, you know, we're not just selling products. This is this is actually a super emotional journey, hence, actually why we're not in menswear anymore. That was a little more transactional.
Liz Nable 18:16
Yes, yep. They need shoes, that cnh
Unknown Speaker 18:19
shoes, it's sure it's on my chore list. Or
Liz Nable 18:22
finally, I need a jumper.
Unknown Speaker 18:25
I mean, they were great customers, when they love something, they bought six of it. But it just wasn't the emotional journey. And I'm like, I'm such a feeler in everything I do in life. And I love the fields. There's lots of great fields in the work that we do.
Liz Nable 18:39
So it was a bricks and mortar business, like you mentioned that you that you bought into. But I know from the research that I've done a new and from your story that you've told that you were an early adopter of the online space for your business. And now that is responsible for a large portion of your revenue. Again, that's a pretty interesting, it was a gut instinct. Were you you know, forecasting figures like how did you see that ecommerce opportunity before anyone else so before most of your competitors
Unknown Speaker 19:11
look, that was such a lucky break and then really sliding door moments again, I left school thinking that computers were for boys and nerds I thought how boring no one would have a career move technology and I landed at university was offered a scholarship in tech. That meant I had to study technology like I had to do and Information Systems major. Oh my god, I was like, get out of town. That just sounds so boring. I mean, my first shooter, they said, You need to say something to a floppy disk. And I was like, What's a floppy disk that would have been made. I knew nothing. Anyway, and so I was forced to study like all these topics like a business and artificial intelligence and basically I was at uni at the 96. So it was we were all getting our first Hotmail accounts. Everyone was like going what system Financing, any book and through the the study and the fact that I was forced to learn about it, it just it was like a paradigm shift. I was like, oh, and it has been a paradigm shift for the world, like in terms of changing the way we learn the way we, you know, date, the way we shop the way we and certainly the way we do business, and I was really interested in business. So I was like, this is going to totally change industry. So that was my uni and first life working experience. I was with IBM, and we're working with different industries. And you know, everyone from dairy farmers to census to Macquarie Bank, we're trying to grapple with how to we have to change our business models to cater for this new thing called the internet. So when we were running this business in a little country town, and we sort of grew to a point that we've kind of exhausted our market locally. And I was looking at, I wasn't afraid to look overseas and go look what's happening over there. Online shopping is becoming really huge. It was 2006. Everyone thought we were nuts. Like a lot of people saying you have to try this stuff on first, like no one's gonna buy a pair of jeans, Jane, unless you can't do that, unless you tried on which was fair enough.
Liz Nable 21:15
Because it would have been a significant investment back then to build a platform to support that right?
Unknown Speaker 21:20
Oh, yeah. Cuz there was no there was no platform. There's no Shopify, there was no e commerce, there's no any of those platforms, we had to build it from scratch find a, I literally Googled, how do I find a nerd? I found one in Canberra. And he built our first two years, so it wasn't fast. And I think our lucky break was we went online at a time like DJs, or tried at a few big companies that sort of tried anonymous pulled out. But we went online with brands like a spray like international brands like a spray Levi's Jag, so no one knew who this little bird's nest was. They knew these brands, they started looking for them online. Not a huge amount of people. But because there was a few people looking we were the only ones that had it. It was just we were just in the right place at the right time. And luckily, Google doesn't care where you live. And so yeah, 95% of our business that is now so pretty, pretty
Liz Nable 22:15
95% of your business?
Unknown Speaker 22:17
Yes, it is. Yeah.
Liz Nable 22:18
That I mean, look, that's that is a lucky break, like you say but but also some incredible, incredible foresight to like you say it because those big retailers, particularly in Australia, did try it and didn't do it that well and failed at it. So it's it's a huge, a huge portion of your story that that's now become such a huge revenue generator.
Unknown Speaker 22:43
Yeah, and look, it's really opened up our market in a in a in a small country town, you know, of 6500, to be able to reach, you know, every you know, every woman in Australia, it's great. And you know, it's funny, if that team is travelling somewhere, like maybe they're in the Northern Territory, and they see a bad go pass, they still we still can't believe it, you know, that we're able to kind of reach people all over the, you know, all over the country. And, of course, you know, internationally is still an opportunity, and that that we haven't really explored. But unless I guess I'm less and less motivated by growth these days and lots of other things.
Liz Nable 23:18
You went online, but you didn't just go online half heartedly. It wasn't you just didn't just throw mud at the wall and see what happened, obviously evolved this incredible online experience that I know, I'm assuming you've tried to emulate as much as you can that instal personal, you know, touch points. Can you tell me a bit about that experience for your customers online? And, and how that evolved?
Unknown Speaker 23:42
Yeah, sure. I think you know, yes, as you say, when we did it, we wanted to look big, even though we were small. So we really had, we just had everything that was on our shop floor go up online. And so we might have only had 181 10. One told them when, you know, like just, but we had every dress up. So we had 200 dresses to choose from so and I think you know, when we knew we had some real magic going on on the shop floor, and the idea of going online is how do we replicate that experience in an online space and still generate that kind of nurturing and warmth and care that that happens. And we know that great retail experiences come from, you know, generally are delivered by people who have a high care factor. And so that's, you know, that I think is at the heart of good retail is people that actually want to come in and do the job that they're doing. Hence, you have a great experience with them. And I think you know, we really thought about that experience through everything that we did. I remember the first person that ordered something online for with us we quickly got the hand that got you know, a little bit of note paper that well we got to write to them and tell their customer so you write them this little handwritten eye and then the second customer came and we thought, oh, gosh, we have to tell her that you know, we're so pleased that she found us and She's our second customer. And it just went from there. And we are now up to over a million freedom notes that go out every day. We only have we don't have any, I wouldn't say we have any policies. I'm allergic to the word policy. But we do like we have a mantra in our customer service team, which is "If in doubt be generous" So I think, you know, that works for us in terms of, I guess, you know, just for any business, I think you have to understand that you only exist to solve a problem for someone, you know, in a, and doing it in a way that doing that my internet went unstable, and I was worried that you can hear me?
Liz Nable 25:45
Oh, yeah, that again, it did delay. Yeah.
Unknown Speaker 25:50
So I think in any business, you know, you come to realise that you you exist to solve a problem for someone and do it in a really in a way that no one else is doing for them. Or do it better than someone else. And I think really understanding what our customer needed. We understood that from being on the shop floor. I think, you know, we tried to translate that first I watched women come into that to that store. And it was either like, I was so driven by an occasion like the dreaded school reunion, like so all the lot of it was around body shape. So see these hips, or see these boobs, like I want to either show them off, or I want to make them smaller, all right, there's so much around body shape. So we really created that online, that ability to shop by body. Shop by lifestyle personality occasion. And I think you're the one that does those outfits like those, you show me how to put it together. Because quite often in a store, you're helping a customer put that together. So we do have 1000s of outfits, where we show how people how to put it together. You know, we do capsules. And we even you can fill out a whole style profile, and we'll curate the whole, I think we just listened to her. I think one of the biggest transformation or one of the biggest, again, sliding door moments for our business was realising that actually, we knew quite a lot about what women wanted now and the confidence to go out and actually start developing and designing our own brands about 10 years ago. So halfway through, I guess, our journey so far, we we did that. Because we knew, you know, we so many brands would only give us up to a size 14. And we're like, well, that's the average size. So, you know, we want to be able to offer sizes six to 24. So to do that, we kind of had to take that into our own hands. So they're the things that I think really differentiate us. And then there's things that you need, that you just have to get things delivered quickly. Yeah, and people were when someone orders a dress today, they really wanted it yesterday. And you need to make things like returns really easy. And we learned that early. Used to have like a 14 day returns policy or something in the store was crazy. And I remember once hearing someone online, like, like we realised that was so relevant, we've had a 365 day returns policy for a full refund on any live, you know, probably one of the most generous returns policies, very generous taken that to a lifetime return. Really, it's now lifetime. So I mean, we because we've Yeah, so we've just launched rehab. So what it means is that even once you've worn an item, we're now we're about to launch our pre loved online arm so that you're actually going to be able to buy new garments with us, as well as pre loved business garments. And so we're starting to actually revolve, the clothes are out in our wardrobes with all our wings allow our birds nests goes out in their homes, if they're not wearing them anymore, send them back, we'll give you a small credit. And we'll actually start revolving that again. So we're truly trying to think diff about how people will I think we're all trying to think differently about our wardrobes now. Yeah, so now it's lifetime returns,
Liz Nable 29:15
and returns, but look that that's clever, because you're hitting so many touch points with people because they not only feel comfortable to buy and they can they have the you know, the flexibility to return it whenever or if it doesn't suit or you know, what if they have problems with it or, or anything like that, but you're also building that trust and that that credibility in the community too, that you're not just a flash in the pan brand that you guys are here for the long haul?
Unknown Speaker 29:44
Yeah, 100% and I think we have to take responsibility for what we're bringing into the world. And you know, and I think we're all starting to think about sustainability more. And yeah, I think You know, certainly, there's nothing about the fashion industry that's perfect in that way. But I think yet to be that, that does give our customers and because we're all thinking about how we do that as well. And sometimes it's just so inconvenient to, you know, like, if we can make, if we can make doing something that's good for the planet more convenient that that is solving a problem that really needs to be solved.
Liz Nable 30:27
It sounds like like listening to your customers has been a really big part of, of your journey and your story because, you know, a lot of times in small business and most of the the audience here I think are small business or women in small business. It's hard not to take feedback and, and problem customers and complaints and that sort of thing to heart. But when you can harness those into making it a really positive progression for your business, it's a win win situation, because that's your a testament to that.
Unknown Speaker 31:01
100%. And I think it can be quite confronting, and I think it's something, you know, I find it easier on a business level to take on feedback, because I feel like that, you know, that's really listening to what our customers want. And that's and connecting that with evolving the business in the direction that our customers are going and what's important to our customers, she wants more nap fibres, she wants to know, how she can, you know, make a contribution to trading a little lighter. She wants, you know, so she wants to say our packaging like that all that stuff feels rip it, you know, quite often for ourselves, that's when it becomes harder when you you know, and I often talk about that leadership journey and just all of our journeys when we are how do we invite feedback for ourselves in in how we can evolve as little people as well. But yeah, certainly for our businesses. It's a gift, it's an absolute gift. So creating those listening points, whether that's through surveys, or focus group, whatever you need to do to hear it, then of course, we've got the store, which is just such a great listening. And for our team as well. Social media, there's lots of ways in which you can have a two way conversation and learn what's important to your customer.
Liz Nable 32:21
Did the business always do? Well, like was it an overnight success? Or did you, you know, you mentioned that your motivation was never financial or money or profits. But tell me a bit about how that evolved in the business in it. Because I know, obviously, I'm a small business owner as well, that financial kind of fight or flight mode is quite hard to move forward from when you're trying to build a business.
Unknown Speaker 32:45
Oh, look, and I think when I say I'm not, I'm not driven of all, I'm a daughter of an accountant. So you know, make a profit reinvest has been a mantra from early on. So I wouldn't say that. I think I'm just not driven by being hugely bigger, but I am driven by being financially sustainable. 100% I mean, you can't not I've always had an excellent cash flow budget. And excellent, you know, that numbers have been my thing. And I think it gives you the freedom to care about other things to be financially successful. So I think that's absolutely that is the language of business, you can't be in business and not, and not prioritise that and not you know, have goals in that space and not be really clear about, you know, your cash flow and what you can afford to do and what you cannot afford to do. And so, you know, making a profit, any risks that I've taken, I've always been in a position where the business is in the black. So in a sense, you know, I could have taken a lot more risks and made and grown a lot faster. I think I've always thought about it as a marathon and not a sprint. You know, my favourite quote, often that I talked about is the Charles Darwin, the theory of, you know, evolution, that it's not the, you know, the smartest of us are not the strongest, but the one most adaptable to change. And I think that's the thing we've really focused on. And it has, it hasn't been a really fast race, but we've really kind of run our own race. And I mean, there's been plenty of, you know, challenging moment, I remember the beginning when we were growing quite quickly. And you know, all of a sudden, I realised that we weren't able to weren't going to be able to cope on our own. We needed extra people and mom and I were packing parcels into the night and she was like, Honey, like, we really we really need to get some help. And so we hired, you know, that next week where we hired our first employee, specifically for the online, which was Dan Fraser, who's still with us, I have to say today as well. Oh, wow. Yeah. Lots of adventures. But yeah, so she's still with us. On the day she started, it had been so busy and we did not get one Oh, did that day and I was like, oh, no, what am I doing? Like, you know, jinx the whole thing. And I think there's been plenty of those sorts of moments of the I think, you know, a lot of the problems that you have when you're growing quickly, though, are quality problems. Like they're like, how are we gonna get the passes out today? All the processes are a mess, you know, but it's because you're growing quickly. And so it's kind of I always called them my I think it was one of my dad's terms quality problem. I think the scariest time was definitely the reverse with so when we went actually started going backwards in COVID. So we actually, at one stage, had more returns going out of the building, then we had or, like, more returns coming into the building. And then we had pastors going out of the building. That was, like, absolutely terrifying. And I think, a bit terrifying, because as an accountant and doing the numbers, saying how quickly that cash flow can go backwards, and how quickly and what that means for a small team and feeling so responsible for these 150 humans, who, you know, not only it wasn't their livelihood, but it was their community of people that they came into every day. So yeah, and look for lack of just so luckily, for us, that was short lived, and it turned out that ecommerce was the place to be. But, you know, it's, then you really start focusing on the finances when when it looks like that. Yeah,
Liz Nable 36:28
yeah, I think, um, again, a lot of the audience to this show, you know, women in small business who have absolutely had those moments, and I think it's comforting to hear someone like you saying that you, you've been there because, you know, COVID has had a huge effect on, you know, so many different businesses in so many different ways. You know, some of being closed, some of you know, had these huge orders that they can't fulfil, because of supply issues, or cashflow issues, or there's so much that's gone on in the last few years. And when you're in that fight or flight mode in your business, which a lot of us have been in the last two years, it's really hard to see the future and where that is going to end.
Unknown Speaker 37:09
Anything else?
Liz Nable 37:11
I know it's lie awake at night and think about your financial worries, right? It's and it but it's interesting that what if you can, if you if you believe in it, and you back it, and you've got the data to show that I just had to hang tight that, you know, it's going to be okay, in the end. And those moments aren't over just because you're growing and doing well. It's such a roller coaster ride, having your own business, and
Unknown Speaker 37:34
so much of it is persistence, because so much of it is so hard, like you know, even now when I do things, that took four times longer than I thought it was going to take to launch. Again, we were supposed to have launch site, this rehashed initiative, you know, we started talking about it in 2020, in terms of the selling, and everything just takes, you think you get to a point and you're going to be really good at getting these things done. And then you realise anything that's worth doing, you have that so much persistence in it. And that's why, you know, if you've got it, you'll be still left standing then at the end,
Liz Nable 38:05
and backing yourself and going, you know what I have to, I have to forge ahead. And you know, a lot of us, it's, it's, you know, we've got no choice, you've got to keep going. So, you've built your business, obviously, annual turnover around 30 million, you've got 150 staff, and your story, which you're sharing with us now, which has obviously evolved over time, is is is a really interesting and incredible one. Why do you think your story and what's now become the bird's nest story? is such an important part of what you do with porn behind the business? Oh, well,
Unknown Speaker 38:40
I think I mean, I think for the, for us as a team, it gives us meaning. I mean, we know. And people, we're all as humans, we're storytellers, we connect through story. And it's how we learn. It's how we experience life. I think. Interestingly, when you when you talk about story like that, I mean, one of the things that that we did a couple of years ago as a team was was we talked about this thing called brand story, right? We all read this book called Brand Story, probably you've read that. And so yeah, and they and I think it changed a little bit how we talked about our story, because I think, you know, sometimes you think when you go out and to an audience, that you need to be the hero of this story. Were really, you know, I think what, what we what we realised is, you know what, we're not the hero of the story at all, like we're in this story. And we've always felt us of ourselves as the wing bird, you know, in a woman's life. And you know, we're her wardrobe when burden and I think it really helped us feel good about our story because we could say the transformation was like the customer is the hero of our story. And we are part I've heard transformation and we guide her through that, and we give her good assistance, and we care about her. And we, you know, and hopefully, and this is where we get the joy out of what we do is when we hear the stories from women who say, Oh, my gosh, when I discovered you, and I, you know, and now I feel like I've got such a safe place to come and find what I need. And, you know, the stories that come out of that of the store, you know, women have got, you know, we have women that go through things every day that we can't imagine and that, you know, if we can be a small part of supporting that. So I think, you know, if you haven't read the brand story, it's a really good one, you know, when you're struggling about how to talk about your story, and that you find it really hard to put yourself as the hero of the story, it's okay, because you don't have to, because really, you know, in, in our businesses, and even me, in the business, I feel like sometimes I'm on the sideline, and I, my role is to create the right environment in the right space for my team, to have their own transformations and their own wins and their own achievements. And it's really helped me think about what my role is in the business as well.
Liz Nable 41:04
Yeah, it's interesting, because as Australians, in general, we are quite humble, we're quite self deprecating, we use humour to play down our achievements, it's not cool to say, you know, I'm good at this. So for a business owner, you know, for a woman running, you know, starting her own small business or running her own business, growing a business. I speak to, you know, women, obviously, for the podcast, and through my trainings all time, and I've noticed such a strong theme of many of them struggling to own their achievements and tell their story in authentic way, because they don't want to be ignored, or, you know, they worry about what people think of them. And a lot of the women who have come, who have grown their businesses to your level, have said a similar thing, as long as they're not talking about themselves, they're comfortable. And that's okay, if you don't feel comfortable, you know, to self promote it, making it about the customers is is totally a story in itself. And how do you have you sort of,
Unknown Speaker 42:09
I don't want to underestimate the role of the wing bird or the role of the, you know, the guy that I mean, you know, I certainly see that I bring certain skills, you know, I bring certain things to our team, you know, that they look to me for, but then I think there's plenty of the I think just understanding what you what you're able to bring to the table, and then what you're not in, I think it's just being fair that life is, you know, it's a combination of skill and luck. So,
Liz Nable 42:37
I agree with you 100% distance and a
Unknown Speaker 42:40
whole lot of things. I mean, you know, we all we've already got such a big leg up in life. Being born here be you know, there's so many things that have given us a leg up to this point, you know, I think it's just, you can't, it's hard for people to own fully something that they know that there's so many components to why a business like ours has had the success it has. And I'm a component of that, for sure. But I, I am very aware of the many components and that it is a team sport, and that there's a lot of things that have worked in our favour as well. Yeah.
Liz Nable 43:18
You've sort of built her reputation, as you know, probably not consciously or deliberately, but through your work in your business as a, you know, a champion for women in business as an inspirational leader and an expert in what you do. Has that helped you like leverage growth in the business? Like, has that been? Like I know you, I don't think you would have done it deliberately. It's obviously comes with the territory, but has it helped you go beyond the scope of the business and help like lift women and in return, the brands come along with that?
Unknown Speaker 43:53
I think it's hard to observe from where I see it, I'm not sure. And it's certainly hard to think of yourself as an expert or anything, I hope I'm an expert learner what I think I'd love that, you know, having, you know, a slight platform in which to connect with other businesses, like it's really exciting to me that businesses do look to us. We often we require we we've been talking forever, we ran a regular two or three, the business where we would invite small businesses to come through and we would do a tour through all the areas and then depending on what the group was, I would always do a q&a with them. And then if they had a special interest in certain areas that they would go and be mentored.
Liz Nable 44:38
Wow, that's amazing. Yeah,
Unknown Speaker 44:40
it was one of it's one of our favourite things to do. And we're, you know, we're just sort of getting back on the horse now that we're all out and about. And, you know, I think yeah, I mean, helping anyone along their journey and empowering them in some way. And I think most of all, feeling like we're not alone. In but quite often in those conversations, I also had, you know, I had just as genuine learnings from the small businesses that came to talk with us and had that same feeling of oh my gosh, they're all experienced, you know, these founders are all experiencing the same thing I experienced as well. And I had that sense of feeling not alone. So I think, you know, all those connections that you create, and if you're able to go out and effectively, I guess, you know, give back on some of the learnings that you've been lucky enough to have along the way, then I think that all creates a positive energy and flow that connects people to your business and then creates conversate genuine conversation. And you know, if other people are telling your story, I mean, the connection that you get when you've done a tour, and you've seen it all, and you've been in the back end, and you've had a firsthand conversation, I mean, I'm sure that generates dinner party conversations, you know, down the line. And so that yeah, I'm sure that all has a flow on effect, for sure. You definitely
Liz Nable 45:58
have and it sounds like you've had this from the start an abundance mindset, not a scarcity mindset.
Unknown Speaker 46:08
Yes, I think, you know, I think, I think in general, I'm an optimistic person. And I would have an optimistic view. Like, that's why I think I run late so often. optimistically, think I can get a whole lot more done than I can. Okay, I'm gonna, I'm being really rude. That's a
Liz Nable 46:29
great, I love that line of thought. I'm gonna say that now two
Unknown Speaker 46:33
years, but I think so much of that depends on our state of mind. And you know, as you say, when you're in survival, everything becomes a lot more scary.
Liz Nable 46:41
Very, it's, it's hard, I think, when you're in survival to see beyond see the forest for the trees, and it's interesting. I'm just sitting as you speak, thinking, it's amazing how you've kind of gone above and beyond really what you need to do. But it's come back to you in spades.
Unknown Speaker 47:00
Yeah, I mean, I, yes. I think I do feel really lucky in that way. And I think, you know, one of the things as a, as a reasonably stressed out, young person that I was and kind of workaholic, etc. I think one thing that has been such a gift over this time has been learning more about, about how my brain works and how our brains work. And and how much of a slave we are to them. Yeah. And how much that we have, you know, you know, I, we were introduced, I was introduced to a mindfulness coach at some point in my life at some point in this leadership journey, which, which was a, which I think the most important thing was learning about how my brain works, which we all our kids are lucky enough to learn in school. Now. I feel like they all know about their frontal cortex. You know, when I didn't know, and so I think learning that in my 30s. And then realising, you know, yes, I have a natural tendency to be in that space. But also now I have a lot more tools at my disposal to know when I'm not, when I'm when I get into scarcity. And when it all becomes becomes overwhelming and feels all too hard. I know that the difference between that and an abundance kind of mindset is probably a good sleep and a walk. Yeah. So you know, knowing that it's not the end of the world and being able to remind myself even though it feels like it right now, that actually,
Liz Nable 48:26
that is a skill I need, and I'm gonna get the name of your mindset coach. You've obviously, I mean, you've won awards for the culture in your workplace. I think you were named fourth visit in 2017. For the fourth best workplace to be employed. And is that right? Is that in the world?
Unknown Speaker 48:47
No, that's in Australia, Australia. Still
Liz Nable 48:51
pretty big deal. And then you were 2018? Did you win that award again, or you you were placed again?
Unknown Speaker 48:59
Oh, gosh, now you're testing me.
Liz Nable 49:01
Let's just say you've won some awards. And you've got, you know, some amazing PR and media coverage to go for those awards in those opportunities, those keynote speaking opportunities, panel positions, and that sort of thing, that that kind of come with the leadership role that women have when we're running a business. Can you just explain to the listeners like why that's important? Again, I I know for a lot of business owners a they're super busy, but be they don't, you know, they're not there to self promote, but I'm a big believer in that being a part of a part of giving back and a part of, you know, sitting in the moment and being allowed to accept awards or accolades or that sort of thing. It's it's part of the journey, do you sort of feel the same way like why would you say that those things are an important part of kind of evolving and growing the business and also yourself as a leader.
Unknown Speaker 49:54
I look I think you know, the, the recognition pieces like the ones that look at you The ones that we're always really invested in things like the customer experience and innovation and things that our team are part of delivering, because I think they know how hard they go, they know how hard they work, and how much they care. And so to be recognised nationally, on that scale is such a thrill for the team. And we're, this week, actually, for a customer and national customer, online customer service award. And the team's really stoked and got people going to Sydney to be proud of the big night and get the head on. And so, you know, that's, that's really exciting. And, you know, it's credibility, which is also really important, because there's, you know, and one thing that's really important on our website is our customer reviews, and you know, those testimonials and things like that, it's really important to put those up, that's, I mean, ultimately PR is, is is, you know, in, hopefully empowering others to tell your story in a way and that's so powerful when other people are able to tell a story on your behalf. So hearing what other customers say about us hearing what the industry thinks of us how we measure up against other people, you know, being part of the conversation and industry type of industry type events, where you panel, you're talking on panels, I think for being a regional business, I think it's been important to get, that's one of the stages, I'm happy to get on when we're talking about the opportunity for regional businesses, because I think it's just it's, you know, buy from the bush and Grace Brennan has been, you know, such an incredible advocate for this space. And I think, you know, so many women are out in our regions, running and creating, you know, these incredible businesses that, you know, such contributors to the community, and enter families and giving them the encouragement, and helping them in their journey to back themselves. I think, anything I can do in that space is really exciting. And I'm really pleased to do that.
Liz Nable 52:02
Obviously, the business that you have is a very visual business, how important is that social media piece and traditional media, in telling your story in the business?
Unknown Speaker 52:15
Um, I think well, at the beginning, traditional media was all we understood. And, you know, I remember our first ad that we put into country style, and we still advertise with countries style. Even now, we quickly learned we had to fish where the fish were, though, I guess, and we're very much a digital business. So you know, obviously, online social, we're all consuming news and entertainment and connecting with our family and friends there. And that's where we need to be we've always thought of it as a place where we have a two way conversation and that, you know, that we need to create, I guess, meaningful content that people connect with, and that are that's interesting and relevant to people. And I think it's a space where, you know, yeah, we I mean, we learned so much during COVID, I think one of the things that we evolved in, in COVID, is I think, we always thought we had to be sort of quite perfect and have our content, really polished, beautiful videos. And, you know, what we realised in COVID is that, you know, that kind of raw, a little bit unpolished content, where we're connecting, and all of a sudden, we couldn't get models. So our team became the models and, you know, being able to see visually, you know, women that didn't look like models, and that were body shapes that were similar to women that they're watching them, I think we you know, we brought an even more kind of authentic and genuine tone to our kind of voice through that. And I think, you know, I think that period for that learning, and those extra connections, and videos become a really important part of our storytelling now, and the way that women like to connect with us. So we continue to learn in that space and evolve. You know, we've always probably been pretty conservative about how much we spend on marketing, we've always said, you know, we don't spend more than 10 or 12% of our overall budget on marketing and that includes, you know, photography and packaging and all sorts of things. And so a lot of what we do is organic in that space. Yeah.
Liz Nable 54:22
And did you ever seek out media when you first started or or was that you know, was there media? Obviously the media come to you now because you've built the business over a long period of time, but was that media are PRPs important to you in growing the business?
Unknown Speaker 54:39
Ah, look, I mean, I have to be completely honest. I would say that I need your course Liz. You are gonna say that. I you know, I Talia, who is actually you know, she is incredible at this stuff and she'll looks after our partnerships and PR now and you know, she's she said, Remember Jamie used to say you're allergic to PR. And so funny. That's
Liz Nable 55:08
exactly what Grace Brennan said. She said she's allergic, those words.
Unknown Speaker 55:14
And so I think, you know, I would say that I'd probably myself have not been particularly good at it. But we've had some great people that have helped us along the way. And I've been really good at putting that story together and getting it out there. And I am trying to get better at it. And yeah, as I said, but often I have to psych myself up, like, I know, I've got a call this afternoon with a media outlet that wants to tell, we've just launched this new great accommodation business, which like, this days, where you can come we restored these beautiful terraces, and you can come and stay right next to our nest and bring a group of girlfriends and have beautiful champagne. And so it's a great story. That's amazing. And women are loving it and you are running your competition at the moment on social and you know, people can come and win a weekend there. And it's a great story. But I'd still like I've got a media outlet, who is apropos nothing wrong, and someone will talk about it this afternoon. And I'm like, Ah, still, I shouldn't be really excited. And I you know, I still have that dread of, oh, gosh, I hope I don't say something silly, or I'm wondering if I'm the right person to talk about it. And I really do have to psych myself up.
Liz Nable 56:23
Yeah, to do it. Yeah, I mean, that is an amazing story might come down. You just said champagne. So I'm there.
Unknown Speaker 56:32
Any bubbles? Yeah.
Liz Nable 56:34
You know, the way to a woman's heart has been, you know, we've talked about, you know, how self deprecating women can be in business and how hard it is to, to ingrain yourself in a story or own your achievements and that sort of thing. Have you sort of ever sort of felt that impostor syndrome or felt worried about what people thought of you? Or, you know, had people make comments to you and made you sort of sit back and think you should maybe shrink a little and how have you dealt with that along the the journey of the business and your career.
Unknown Speaker 57:06
I think it would be hard to be human and not have moments of doubt and moments of, effectively, I guess what you would call impostor syndrome, I think, you know, possibly the way, the thing that has, the way that I've maybe got around that is to focus on the things that I am really passionate about. So, yes, I'll freeze up if someone wants to talk about the latest fashion trend, or, or really focus very much on my individual contribution, but I you know, I will talk forever, if you wanted to keep talking today on you know, business culture, or the team or, or even just the imperfectness, of, of, of being human and running a business and trying to be a leader and, you know, on those things on where there's, you know, space to be honest about how difficult it all is. And, and of course, living and working in regional Australia is something I'm hugely passionate about. So I think the way I've been able to find my voice and speak up is to find the things that I think are really important and that I'm feel like there's stuff to talk about. So people realise they're not alone, and that we're all on this journey kind of together that stuff where I feel like I can lean into that and feel good about about stepping up.
Liz Nable 58:35
Are you someone who dwells on the negative? Or are you are you at a point now where you've had so much, you know, you've been on such a journey that you kind of, you can easily dismiss that stuff and focus on what's important.
Unknown Speaker 58:48
I think I'm pretty good at forgiving myself for being an idiot. So I like I, I think I, you know, I definitely will have a crossword with myself, and try to learn from and if I really feel like I've handled something badly, or, or, you know, I've let my you know, quite often it's Yeah, so I think yeah, I have got better at that self compassion bit. And also knowing that I think it helps knowing that in order to extend that to other people, you know, you can't be too hard on yourself, because and learning that I think helps you be a bit kinder to yourself, and realise, you know, what's gone, it's gone. And what can you learn from it and move forward? I hope that I don't, I'm hoping that I'm not flipping about it. I hope that yeah, I learned and move on.
Liz Nable 59:45
Well, it's been an absolute pleasure talking to you today, Jane. I know I've gone a bit over time as per usual. But thank you so much, and I know that there's so many women listening to this right now who will find this hugely insightful and a really good list. So thank you.
Unknown Speaker 1:00:01
Oh, thanks, please. And I'm hoping that I can get a little.on your map to Cooma and then draw a line down and then join in on, on on on your course because as as you've heard, I definitely need to be part of the class.
Liz Nable 1:00:16
Well, I think you've done okay without me so far, but I would absolutely love to come to tie it in with a ski slope session.
Unknown Speaker 1:00:24
Well, you heard it here. I'll get you. Thanks, Jane. All right. Thanks, Liz.
Liz Nable 1:00:33
Thank you for listening to this episode of Nable My Business. If you've loved it, please share it on Instagram and Facebook for your friends. I'm all about listening and learning from you my audience, so please pop a review on iTunes and let me know how you're enjoying the show. I'd love to hear from you. So if you have any questions, email me at Liz at least nabal.com And if you want to know more about what I do, head over to Liz nabal.com I truly hope this podcast is a game changer for you. Whether you're a small business owner, a franchisee you have a side hustle or you're just starting out. This is where you truly begin to build your own empire and the life of your dreams.
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
