EP 7 - Sarah-Jane Kurtini
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Liz Nable: [00:00:00] Today's episode is a must listen, if you've ever struggled to tell your business story in a clear, compelling way. I'm joined by startup founder and pitch expert, Sarah Jane Cini, co-founder of Tiny Beans, the Much Love Australian family photo sharing app. She helped take from two people to IPO before exiting in 2020.
SJ now works with early stage and scaling founders to help them nail their narrative and pitch for investment, including through her brilliantly named tool Pitch slap, which rose and then rewrites your startup story so it actually lands. In this conversation, SJ and I unpack the surprising overlap between pitching to investors and pitching yourself to media from stripping out jargon and speaking human to understanding exactly who you're talking to and the signals they're really listening for.
Whether you're a tech startup founder, a bricks and mortar business owner, [00:01:00] thinking about franchising. Or a side hustler who wants to communicate your value more powerfully? This episode will help you clarify your story, understand the basics of funding stages, and think more strategically about the kind of business and life you actually wanna build.
Hello and welcome to Medium Magnet, the podcast for female founders and women owned businesses, startups, and side hustlers who want to learn how to grow their business, leveraging the media and free pr. I'm Liz Nale, and I'm your host, personal publicist, PR strategist, and dedicated hype woman. My goal with this show is to give you a behind the scenes tour of how the media works to break down the barriers between your business and the big MA head.
So you can see how easy it is to get featured simply by giving journalists what they want at Media Magnet. You'll also get access to the top journals, editors, writers, [00:02:00] and PR people in your industry and beyond sharing their secrets and expertise on the how, why, what and when of pitching and getting featured in the media consistently.
I will share with you how to build your reputation as an industry expert so successfully. The media will be knocking down your door. When I first started in small business 12 years ago, I had no idea what I was getting into. I had spent 15 years as a television news reporter working at several major networks in Australia, and then as a freelancer in the US and around the world.
I spent years dividing my time between working long shifts on a news desk and traveling the world chasing stories. It was unpredictable and exciting until it wasn't anymore. I decided I wanted a life where I was in charge of what happened next and where I was working to build my own empire, not someone else's.
There was a lot I had to learn about running my own business, but getting [00:03:00] media and great free PR was not one of them. I already knew what the media wanted. I knew the secret formula for what made news, and I knew how to leverage those media outlets to build my business, get more exposure, and ultimately make more sales.
I was featured in every major media outlet in the country, and I never spent a single cent on pr. I took that knowledge for granted until it dawned on me one day that I could teach what I knew to other businesses. Let them in on the secret, and they too could build their brands with organic media and pr.
Let me help you take your brand from Best Kept Secret to household name. This is Media Magnet. The podcast and I'm pretty pumped to have you here.
Okay, Sarah, welcome to the [00:04:00] show. It's an absolute pleasure to have you. It is a pleasure to be here. We've never really broached this subject on the podcast before, but I've, I've thought about it for a really long time, and obviously we get about to get into depth, into, you know, deeper kind of detail about how.
Pitching for outside investment has a big crossover with pitching yourself for media and PR exposure. You are an expert in pitching yourself or pitching your startup to investors. Tell us a little bit about what you do, um, and I guess who you work with and, and your, a little bit about your area of expertise, and then we'll jump into some more detail.
Sarah-Jane Kurtini: Yeah, sure. So my background is that I was a founder for 10 years. Had, um, still going just without me, a, a co-founder of a, um, baby journal app called Tiny Beans, which has become a bit of a Australian institution. So it's a private, uh, family sharing for your kids' photos so you don't have to put them on.
[00:05:00] Um. On Facebook, social media, keep your family safe. And took that from like two people to taking it to IPO in 2017, to exiting in 2020. So a whole heap of, um, like firsthand experience in terms of having. To sell your startup idea to customers, to investors. Um, and then when I exited, Tinybeans started working more closely with, um, more scale up founders on how to position and often reposition their, uh, products.
So how to talk about themselves in a way to their customers. So it's easy to understand, simple and uncomplicated, and. Then I was doing a lot of mentoring for Start Mate, which is an accel tech accelerator, um, in, in Australia and helping founders with their pitches. And that's how the idea for Pitch Slap came about and how I got more kind of, more and more involved with helping founders pitch for investment.
'cause I'd done it [00:06:00] previously, was often getting asked about this, but noticed a couple of things. Like it's really hard to get really great feedback on your pitch. Most people don't like to kind of. You know, to give you the brutal feedback you need, and most founders don't wanna hear it. Maybe there's something about being given it face-to-face that's really hard to take.
So I had this idea for a little tool that would help do that. So tear your pitch down from the beginning and often your startup story. Right. I kind of noticed that people got a lot. Up in their heads about writing a deck and forgot to nail their story and their narrative. And once you've nailed that, it's so much easier.
So I built this little tool. It was really supposed to just be for the people that I was mentoring, but it, it got more well known. I think it's 'cause I called it Pitch Lap and it made people laugh. I love name. So that's kind of how it came to be and how I get to do this a lot, lot more and, and, and help lots of early stage founders really with the tool.
Um, because they just haven't got that first time experience of knowing what investors are listening out for and [00:07:00] the signals thereafter.
Liz Nable: Yeah. First of all, let me say, I do love the name Pitch Lab. It's really clever. Well done. I was quite tough myself. It's a really smart, like it tells me in like, I don't even know if it's two words or one word.
Is it one word? Pitch slap. Yes. I made it one
Sarah-Jane Kurtini: word,
Liz Nable: but yeah, take it too. Yeah. Yeah. I know in an instant what it is and it's also kind of funny, which is really, really clever. Um, so it's interesting because I think, and before anybody turns to the next episode because they think that they're not a startup and that they're just a bricks and mortar business, or they're a side hustler and they don't need outside investment, let me say.
That there is a huge cross section of what applies to getting media and pr, being able to sell yourself, being able to talk authentically about yourself, tell your story. So even if you don't think that, um, you know, you need outside investment right now. Stay tuned because there's so much more to this that applies across every aspect of your marketing for your business, I [00:08:00] think.
Um, and I've often thought that, and, and I have never pitched myself or my business for outside investment, but I feel like it's all really relevant. Tell us a little bit about, I guess in a nutshell, if you are pitching for investment, just I guess in Yeah. In a nutshell, what does that look like? What are some of the things that you are.
Sharing in your story and, um, I guess if you are at that startup phase, what are you looking to profile about your business that would be interesting to investors, um, about your story, but about your business? Let's start there and then we can probably go into a bit more detail about what that looks like.
Sarah-Jane Kurtini: Yeah, and I agree like so many of the principles the same, like I'll often talk about like building a story is often getting the building blocks in place and so many of those building blocks that are relevant to building your customer story are still there for investors. There's just a couple more it.
Things they're looking for in a slightly different lens. So I think, you know, like with any story [00:09:00] you're thinking about like who you are telling your story to first, and that helps shape it. But like the, one of the biggest things I say about pitching to investors is that you're still dealing with a human.
Yeah, right. Still someone who, you know, probably starts to process information like through the process of storytelling and understanding. So some of it is very, very similar, like I'll say to people with their customer stories. Like, you start with the problem, right? Like, and that problem could be that. Um, you know, they don't have a current solution to something they're dealing with, or their current solution sucks, whatever it might be.
And that's the arc that you, the narrative arc that you're taking investors on as well. Right? They are busy, overwhelmed humans. They probably, they cannot be inspected to, um, understand like thousands of different market categories and solutions and the. The way that you can pitch them really effectively is help them understand the context and background to [00:10:00] your solution and why it's so powerful.
And that starts with setting up, you know, the problem, and then helping them understand like the market context. Like why has no one solved this before? Or if people have tried, why have they failed? So that then the na next natural step when you talk about yourself and your solution. Make sense, rather than coming out the gate with, this is my solution.
They're like, but, but, right. What is it? Wait a minute. Who wants it? You, they, they, they'll be scrambling to make sense of it. So I think, you know, so many of the principles that I'm sure you share around, like telling your, your media story, your PR story are helping set the context and the understanding for why you are such a, um, a great solution right now.
And then I'd say, but the key difference that you probably wouldn't share with, um. Customers is what they then want to know is once they've understood the background, the history, what you do, it's like how far along in the process you are. So you'd say that like that was [00:11:00] the traction. Like, you know, are you getting revenue, are you profitable?
Like, what are all the different signals that de-risk an investment for them? That's probably the, the slightly different piece, but I think the setup is really similar.
Liz Nable: Yeah, it is really similar. So when I teach inside the Media Masters program, we talk about consuming the media outlets where we think our customers are.
So let's say for example, it's The Daily Telegraph, which is a mass audience, you know, a mainstream audience. Yep. Telling our story in a way that's really layman's terms, simple to understand. Mm-hmm. Not big corporate language. We deal with that a lot. Breaking down like big words that don't mean anything to the average person.
If you're looking to pitch yes to, um, a, a, an average Aussie, you know that they don't, they don't. Understand what you do and you need to talk in language that they understand. So it's the same thing essentially. Or if you were pitching to the A FR for example, you're talking [00:12:00] to potentially, um, a more educated, higher socioeconomic bracket, you know, generally speaking, um, you would probably pitch with different language than you would to mm-hmm.
You know, to a Mama Mia. So, so yes, knowing who your audience is, um, knowing who that investor could potentially be. Without getting too detailed, can you just break down, and this is for my own benefit too, I know a little bit about this, but for anyone listening just really briefly, the stages of investors, so I think there's what angel investors in a, or you could do your, you know, it could be anything from like family and friends, right?
What's that category called and how that works as you scale up, I guess, into diluting more shares and, and that sort of thing. Again, in layman's terms, for people like me who are not across this in depth.
Sarah-Jane Kurtini: Yeah, so I'd say that the, the, probably the, the most basic terms are like pre-seed and seed investors.
So really early on, and that's probably not gonna be your [00:13:00] big venture capital type businesses who often have like a minimum threshold to make it worth their like mini, like millions often. Yeah. So it could be really early stage, like angel investors could be family and friends. Um, or, and there's, there's, um.
Venture funds out there who are actively seeking early stage, um, founders to invest in. So they're not expecting huge like traction signals and they're not expecting necessarily to have revenue. They are looking more for strong team and founder signals. And I think that's probably where I'd think about.
Um, what you need to prove at each stage, because they'd say overall that all investors are looking for a mix of understanding the market opportunity, understanding where you are on that traction, traction product, market fit journey, and the strength of your team, and. Ideal world, you'd have [00:14:00] all three. But those early stage investors probably are not gonna be expecting you to have like concrete product market fit, like, you know, really, really strong, um, numbers in terms of, yeah, revenue or whatever it might be.
They'll probably know that you won't have that. They'll be looking more about the strengths of the team. Like, can you execute, can you articulate strong vision for your company? So I'd say pre-seed and seed. And then you'd go more to like series A, series
Liz Nable: B. Okay, so I'm gonna ask you another question about that just to make sure that I'm super clear for myself as well as everyone.
Yes. So pre-seed, what's the difference between pre-seed, seed A and B? And then just really basics on, I'm assuming pre-seed are taking a lot of risk, therefore they would take more of a chunk of your business. Yes. And then as the risk gets less and less, they're taking, um, they don't get as much return on investment.
Is that right?
Sarah-Jane Kurtini: Probably take as much equity from your company. Equity, correct. Yeah, [00:15:00] so I think it's just different tranches, like we said, like more the kind of prese level. Often what they'll do, an early stage startup will be looking for just a really small minimum investment at the beginning to help them build out their like MVP, their like minimum viable product.
Yeah. And that's often around the like 250 to $500,000 mark and. That's where you'd really lean into like those angels and that's that kind of pre-seed level. And then often off the back of that, once you've proven out like, and gone to the next stage of a milestone, like, yes, we've built an MVP, we've got X amount of customers or paying customers, that's when people might move to that like kind of seed level around the kind of 1.5, up to 2 million mark.
Um, and then, you know. Keep t tranching up. But I guess that's probably the, the, the way we're, um, sitting for
Liz Nable: the
Sarah-Jane Kurtini: basic, some of the people that listen to the podcast. Yeah.
Liz Nable: So, um, so they need to, when they're, um, thinking about pitching for outside investment at whatever level that is, or let's say for example, they're a [00:16:00] bricks and mortar business, they're a fitness studio and they're like, oh, we want a franchise, for example, and they wanna get investment to scale quickly or whatever that might be.
Um, they're needing to, you mentioned. Speak the language of understand who the investor would is that they're pitching to and the language that they would use. What else do they need to think about? Um, obviously they need to know their revenue model. Do they have customers? Are they making money? Um, I guess the potential future earning opportunity.
What, what? What's that? What, tell me a bit more about that. I
Sarah-Jane Kurtini: think also to know the type of business you want to run and how involved you want to be. Right? Because I think that affects the type of, you know, the, the kind of investor you get, how they're gonna push you and understanding that will help. You define the kind of investor you want to reach out to.
'cause they all have their different investment thesis, right? Like, and it can get super, super niche. Like some investors will only invest [00:17:00] in like sport or athletic brands at, and companies like that. It will get that niche. And so, and at a certain level, like some would only do like. Tech enabled B2B platforms.
And so knowing exactly the kind of business you want to run, where you want to take it, and your vision, like again, some will only invest in global opportunities. Um, they want that like huge impact that can scale globally, where some will be like focused on Australia. So if you have no interest in moving your business beyond.
Like the shores, the last thing you want is an investor that's gonna push you into like a business and lifestyle, which is what I think is really crucial. Like, I think so many kind, just think like being the founder, you are the boss, but also when you take money, you bought yourself a boss, right? And if, if you are misaligned on whether you want to bring.
Take this business, it's not going to be, [00:18:00] um, a harmonious journey and it's probably gonna like, cause you a lot of stress. So I think being as clear as you can be in your own head about the kind of business you want to build it, where you want to build it and what the vision is will help you find the rest.
Right. Investor.
Liz Nable: Yeah.
Sarah-Jane Kurtini: And um, you know, I've experienced that we. Took, um, potentially investment from people that, you know, weren't aligned with where we wanted to take this business. So, you know, tiny Beans in its day was a very, um, tech enabled with, uh, a huge capacity to be global. We didn't need to be restricted a region, and we had some Australian investors who weren't kind of.
Tech, um, savvy investors, like very kind of bricks and mortar investors, and were kind of talking to us after our first round about like dividends and when they get their money back. And we were like, what? Like, this, this is not where we want to take this business. And it just created some like tension that, you know, we, we could have avoided if maybe we, uh, asked the better questions [00:19:00] on the way Yeah.
Through the process.
Liz Nable: And I guess so I, yeah, if you want someone who's gonna. Have strengths where you have weaknesses, who you want to contribute to the vision, or you want them to just be quiet and give you their money.
Sarah-Jane Kurtini: A hundred percent. Like do you want a strategic investor or, or do you just just want the money and be able to do it your way?
There's so many different kinds of investment out there now. I think it's being so clear on what you want and then when you put it out there, people will point you in the right direction. There's incredible funds out there that actively, you know, there's one called NA that I've been dealing a lot with recently.
Actively looking for founders before they've built anything, right? They are looking for incredible ideas, incredible people, and they will help you validate, build your brand and your product, right? And that you know that there, there is a, you know. They'll take equity for the time and effort they put in, but they've also got a huge amount of, um, experience and knowledge around that.
Um, whereas that's definitely not what some investment firms are looking [00:20:00] for. They want you to have proved it out so you've de-risked they're looking to de-risk with you. So there's all different kinds and that I think's what I, one of the, it wasn't intentional when I created Pitch Lap, but I would love to help 'cause I'm getting all kinds of people running through the system.
Help them figure out the best funding path for them, right, to suit them, their vision and the life they want to build. So I think that's really crucial. '
Liz Nable: cause most, I mean, I think it's what like 2% of all external investment goes into women-led businesses. Is that right? Like something. Yes, it is. That's a whole podcast episode in itself, which we are not gonna get.
Yes. Bring me back for that one. I have bring you back for that one. Um, I'm thinking of all these things I offline, but we, yes. So we'll be around two on that. Um, and that's the whole reason why I do what I do, because I never realized, I thought when I was starting my business that I was helping women-led small business owners, um, grow their business using the media and [00:21:00] pr.
I, I just thought of it really simply, but essentially, I guess. By default, I'm actually teaching them about how to have a voice, how to pitch themselves as experts, how to build their authority in a really crowded, male dominated industry. So I never really realized I was doing that sounds silly, but only now I'm like, wait a second.
Like there's all these women who are, you know, who don't think they've got anything to, you know, any value to add. And they, they've got their male counterparts who are way less experience with smaller businesses who are stepping up to the table. So. We're on the same page in that way. Um, so talk to me a little bit about the storytelling aspect.
So when you are pitching, you've decided who your investor is or who you are pitching to, the importance of sharing your story authentically, understanding the, I guess, the touch points that you want to have, because people buy from people, right? That even if it's a startup and it's the tech world, if [00:22:00] that's the business you've got, like you say, you're still pitching to human beings.
Sarah-Jane Kurtini: And I, I talk about that a lot. Like the fact that they're, you know, and again, investors will talk about it all the time. They want to work with good human beings, right? Like, especially if you go to the top end of the scale with like VCs for global, they probably with, with you on a 10 year journey, right?
Like that is what they're in for. They're not looking for. Returns. They're looking for those long-term investments. They don't wanna do it with people they don't like. Right. And people they don't believe in. But, so talk about pitching to a human in terms of telling a simple story that's for them to understand, but conveying yourself authentically and you know, getting across who you are.
But also, I talk about this a lot and that is about, um. Just this, the initial stages are about getting in the room or getting another meeting, and I think that is sometimes a really hard thing for founders to take in because you've got so much context on your business and the [00:23:00] detail, the. But something I've been talking about lately that seems to be helping people understand is comparing it to dating, right?
Like if you are creating a dating profile, you are not gonna write your life history on that, that dating profile, right? You write enough to get the date so that when you meet, you can find out more and you know. You are not, um, overloading people at the beginning. And I think pitching is a lot like that, right?
You are sharing the highlights of your business, what makes you special, what makes you different, the the milestones you've nailed to get in a meeting and find out, and they'll want to know more, right? They will want to know your metrics. They will want to know all the detail. They will do their due diligence, but they're not gonna do that if you haven't peaked their interest in the first place.
And actually, sometimes the, the Shark Tank is. Analogy is a great one. Like they do go through this process and I think a pitch deck that you'd send out is different to standing up and entertaining people for television, but the [00:24:00] principles are all the same. Like often those best pictures on like Shark Tank will start with the problem.
They'll talk to why no one else has done it. There's a incredible example from, have you ever seen the Clutch Glue example on Shark Tank?
Liz Nable: No, I don't think I have. Or maybe remind me and I'll let you know. Oh my God,
Sarah-Jane Kurtini: she's incredible. So Clutch Glue is the, the, the glue that you can glue yourself into your clothes with.
So like a replacement for like boob tape. And one of the, like Shark Tank said, it's one of our most like watched successful pitches. And even though Annabel, who's the founder who I've met through start, Nate, is so incredible at telling the story, and it sounds like fresh and inventive. It still follows the same narrative arc.
Like she stands on stage and her top like, you know, falls off like she does it on purpose. And she's like, oops, oh no, what will I do? Like, these aren't her words, so is much better. So they understand like, oh. Someone's like clothes are falling off in public. Right. That's not good. Yeah. And then she, then someone immediately, one of the sharks, uh, the sharks, and it looks like it's kind of, she couldn't [00:25:00] have done it better.
It was like, oh my God, yeah, that happens to me. I use that glue, but it gives me a rash. And she's like, well, my solution glues you in. It's permanent and it's hypoallergenic. So even though it was super fun and they loved it, it's still the same thing like. The problem you're naming the, um, why no one else is, why all the other solutions are rubbish boob tape, right?
And why her one is better. And then once they're hooked and they're interested, they'll start grilling you on your metrics, right? And like, what's the, you know, the margins or whatever it might be, and you need to know it, but they're not gonna ask you that if they don't. Easily understand what you are and they're not excited about it.
Yeah, so you know, in some ways it's similar. So I think what I do often is help people write their pitch deck, which is a little bit more dry, like you're not looking to perform and make people laugh, but you still want to hook people in and keep them interested, and those principles still
Liz Nable: apply. How important is the founder's story and all of that, because we talk about that a lot and, and it's not just, um, obviously when you are, um, [00:26:00] talking about your founder's story, it it's not necessarily something that you just use for media and pr.
You would have that on the About Us page, on your website. You talk about in your socials. Yeah. You could use your founder's story in networking opportunities for business, you know, partnership opportunities in a pitch situation in terms of how that's built into your pitch deck. And or if you are in these meetings and you are looking to gain interest and I guess you are looking for those investors to emotionally invest in you, I suppose.
How important is that founder story? Because we talk about this a lot inside my course and a lot of women are very like, it's not that interesting. They think it's like run of the mill. They minimize their achievements. They don't wanna share any challenges 'cause they feel like. Their hearts on their sleeve.
Like what, what's the balance there in your opinion, and how important is that part of the the pitch? I'd
Sarah-Jane Kurtini: say it's the most important. And I don't like, and I [00:27:00] say that, um, with a caveat like I, and I think some people may be over in some funds or investors might over index on the founder too much, right?
'cause I think it's this balance and it's, I mentioned it earlier, these three things like the market opportunity. The traction level and how you execute and the founding team. And some people are just like, we are all in on the founder, right? Like their idea, like if they're a really strong founder, they'll pivot, they'll change, they'll do what's necessary.
If we believe in them, we will invest. I am not a hundred. I think you still need to have a solid idea and know that you're solving a real problem. So I, but, but some people do, right? And I say it was number one. And for a lot of people, even those VCs, like they absolutely want the market opportunity and the product market fit.
But if you don't have the founder piece often it's like a no go. And so went. I think it's absolutely crucial and it doesn't need to be your life story, right? Like on a [00:28:00] pitch deck. You just need on to show you have solid experience. That means you're trustworthy. Like I say, they are looking to de-risk opportunity every opportunity.
So if you have solid, you know, recognizable names, where you've worked. That's a huge signal to them. And again, you're just trying to get a meeting. I saw, um, one investor rip a fake pitch deck apart one time like they were, and they were pretty critical of it. They were like, I don't really understand exactly what they're building.
And this is a really senior vc. I. Don't really get the problem they're solving. And then the fake, uh, like slide came up at the end of the team and they'd worked at, like, they've made up, like one had worked at Google, one had worked at Amazon, and they were like, let's be honest, I'm taking the meeting anyway.
Right. Because you forget like they. People forget, they get often get judged. Like if they've missed a really good opportunity, there's meetings that those investment firms go, why did we miss this one? Why didn't you go and speak to this team? How did we, how did we like not invest in these people when it's been successful?
So they're always looking to [00:29:00] make sure they see all the really good founders.
Liz Nable: Yeah,
Sarah-Jane Kurtini: and actually the, I talked about everything being building blocks. Like I think there is a pretty. Standard narrative arc that I keep speaking about. Problem market, category, your solution, your traction, your vision, your team.
But I often say like, the one big shift I'll often suggest is if you, if your team is like your strongest, um, asset. You can put that first, right? If you think that's gonna hook them in from the beginning, like if I was being honest now, if I was pitching for investment, I'd probably start with like, hi M sj, as the founder of Tiny Beans, I, I ped my business, right?
And then they'll be like, oh, okay. Doesn't mean that my idea, my new idea is fundable. It doesn't mean that they're gonna put them money in, but it probably means they're gonna take me more seriously than I might have been in a position 10 years ago when I'd have put it at the end. Thinking about all the, your strengths on those three things and which order to grab them and how to people over the head with the earliest.
Right. So I think, [00:30:00] and, but if you, if even if you don't have that level of experience, like you still have to put your story in there. Like, people are looking to invest in people as well as like strong ideas. So you, yeah. I don't think you can leave it out.
Liz Nable: Yeah. And, and I think also women particularly, although there are a few men that I work with, lovely blokes, um, and who listen to the podcast, but I, I have to say hope, I don't get any hate for this, but most of the men I work with don't use minimizing language.
And a lot of the women I work with just by default use minimizing language even when they're mm-hmm. Qualified, um, with really successful businesses. Um, and, you know, with. You know, education coming out there is and like runs on the board. How important is that to start to like change? I know this sounds a bit like a, it's not a psychology podcast, but change that narrative in your head because when you're in front of investors or if you're pitching to media, or if you're looking for business opportunities, if you are using minimizing language, [00:31:00] I just feel like that's a death nail.
Because if you can't talk about yourself in a way that you are selling your product or your service or your business. How can you expect other people to invest in you or wanna sell on your behalf?
Sarah-Jane Kurtini: I think it's a fine balance, right? Because there's two as well as invest, uh, founder strength, they're also looking for founders who they want to work with and can take feedback, right?
Yeah. So it's not about being like, just so confident and showing you ideas that you're not flexible. It's about presenting you ideas confidently, being open to feedback, being able to have conversations. But, you know, I, I think it's so Christian, I learned this lesson. Um. Uh, I remember at, uh, and I think it's maybe because we're such team players Yeah.
This, this is my, I'd love to get your take on this. Sure. And because it seems um, wrong to take credit yourself when a whole team's been involved. So I remember having this moment, I had this business [00:32:00] coach in 2018 and she was asking me to name, or 2017 all the things I'd done that year that I was proud of.
Basically had nothing. Right. And she was so angry with me. She was like, sj, you iPod your company this year. How is it not on your list? And I was like, yeah, but it wasn't just me. Right? Like, you know, it was my co-founder. The team, our CEO was like so instrumental in driving it. And she was like. What are you talking about?
Like no one has any one thing, you know, normally in a company they can attribute to themselves. You can absolutely talk about that. And I just was, it's an Australian
Liz Nable: cultural thing too, though. It's a female thing and an English one. Americans don't talk about themselves like that. And I kind of admire that ballsy, kind of innovative head space Yes.
Where they can own their achievements. Um, but at the same time, yes, I really admire that startup culture where they're open to feedback. But [00:33:00] yes, I think being able to own your achievements speak really authentically and, and I do think. If you, you've gotta do work on that founder story. You've gotta get really confident sharing it.
Yeah. Potentially get so good at it that you can speak about it on stage without getting nervous that you can pitch to investors really constantly. Yes. But also, and I'd be keen to know your position on this is separating yourself. Emotionally from it. So if there is feedback, like you just tell it so often, it just becomes part of who you are.
Yeah. Um, but being open to feedback on that as well, because it's obviously a professional position. It's not just you sharing it with your family and friends.
Sarah-Jane Kurtini: As you were talking, it made me think about, um, a founder I've just been working with, uh, a mentoring, uh, called Remy, who's, uh, started a company called On the House and she was one of the strongest founders that just came through the recent start, mate.
Cohort I was working with, [00:34:00] like incredible story. So her mission is to end period poverty for women. She's doing, um, a startup that puts, uh, uh, vending machines in public bathrooms that are ad funded products so women can access them for free. And her story is that she's a midwife and a marketer, which is a, a, you know, a rare combination.
That's her strength combination. This is her mission. So it talks to the origin story, why she's so great and. I've been and I, when we got interviewed at the end of the program, I was like, I just envy her because she's doing what I wish I'd done, which is start my personal brand journey from the very beginning.
But even though she speaks about her, uh, business and her background and her mission with like clarity and strength and confidence, she was such a great founder to work with because she was so open to learn, knowing what she didn't know and saying that confidently and asking for help where she needed it.
And I just think that's the perfect balance. So you can [00:35:00] articulate like what you're doing, why you are doing it. But be vulnerable as well. But you know, this is where I need help. And then when you've articulates, people wanna help you, right? If you can articulate that genuinely, warmly, and you're on a real mission.
So I think that balance is such a strength, and I'm sure that's what you bring out, like when you are coaching founders and tell the story. And
Liz Nable: yeah, I think that startup mindset is really important. Um, and not just in startup land, like I think, um, e even in small business, which is different. Yeah. Um, because often there's not outside investment and you do start very small with your own money, normally bootstrap it and, uh, or husband and wife businesses and those sorts of things.
But I, I recently went to a conference for, um, one of the software platforms that I use, and I guess they're a startup, but they've done really, really well and yeah. There was people giving them the most brutal feedback at this. Like I was like squirming in my seat. I was like, oh my god, these right. [00:36:00] And they were just so like pragmatic about it.
They just took all the feedback on board. They had people standing up on microphones going, I hate this part of it. I don't like that platform. Your email marketing's this and that. It's a great business. That's why they've done really well, but obviously there's still bugs to work out and you know, they're, they're American And so, um, from California.
So they had that very clear startup mentality and I just thought, God, I wish, I wish we had more of that here because they're just going straight to the source asking for that brutal feedback. And then just really like. Thick skin, taking it on board and going, we'll work on that. We'll do this. We'll, you know, it was a very transactional situation where normally small business owners, um, we can be very attached personally to what we do and our founder's story, and we don't mean to not take feedback on, but it's, it feels personal.
So, um, I think being really well versed in that founder story. Is great for pitching and getting investment or getting media coverage or whatever it is that you're looking to achieve. Yep. [00:37:00] But also it becomes a bit like another product or a service that you're selling and you're not so personally attached to it because you're so good at telling it and it, it becomes just, I guess, part of what you're selling.
Um, and I think another really, oh,
Sarah-Jane Kurtini: no, no, you, I, a really good tip. Go ahead. I gave it like, um, I was talking to a founder the other day who's really early stages and coaching had like actively ask for the brutal feedback. Right. And don't, you can do it in a way, like, I like everyone who gets pitch laed. I send a little survey out and I can make people laugh.
'cause I'm like, right. Brutally, I deserve it, right? Like, I slap you, slap me back. But, um, framing it in a way, like, how could I have done it better? So it, look, you are being open to the feedback. You're not asking what they like, they'll tell you if they like it, right? Like, that normally just flows anyway.
But being really specific, saying, what could I have done better? How could I have made this more valuable to you? And so being really open to it and then. Yeah, you do have to adjust. I got my worst piece of [00:38:00] feedback last week. It's actually the only really, really terrible one. Like, I think you, it's, it's almost too much to say.
It doesn't affect you. I took like five minutes. Yes, of course it does. Yes. Deep breathing. But like, it was actually a gift because once I dug into it, I saw that they didn't really understand how AI worked. Like they'd said they were like. You do the hard work of reading your output like it did, like it did a terrible job.
But they've given three word answers right, to the questions about like, you know, what are you building? How are you different? And, but it was a good insight 'cause I'm like, right, well it probably didn't do a good job. I could absolutely send a flag up if they've only given really short answers saying.
You probably haven't given the system enough to work on, please feed a little bit more in, and that's why they had a bad experience. So I think it's just training yourself to take a deep breath. Don't take it personally and see how probably every bit of bad feedback does have something in it. Even if it might be, oh, they are definitely not my [00:39:00] customer.
I shouldn't be targeting people like that. Or like I did saying actually I could have made it better so that they got a better output. Yeah. Um, because they don't understand that a AI needs X amount of, you know, inputs to do a good output. So yeah, I think that that's absolutely true as well. I mean, you wouldn't be
Liz Nable: human if you didn't take personally, would you?
Um, what are some of the biggest, when you are pitching for investment in this case, but let's speak generally about pitching yourself for any opportunities. 'cause a lot, like I said, a lot of it crosses over. Yeah. What are the biggest mistakes you see the women that you work with? And I say women because I'm talking predominantly to a female.
Mm-hmm. Make, when they're learning how to pitch or they're developing that skill. Um, what are some of the biggest or the most common mistakes that you see?
Sarah-Jane Kurtini: I think the biggest mistake is coming out the gate with, I touched on this before, like what you do and what you are, rather [00:40:00] than setting the scene for what you do and what you are like coming out and saying, this is what I built, this is what it does.
Um, like that's just too abrupt. So I always say like, you need to take people on the journey. And that's starting with helping them understand. Yeah. Show that you understand what their problem is. 'cause then you talk about how you solve it. Um, so I think that's what really makes it punch and also making it too long, like in the pitch deck builder, I've just released off the back of a, a pitch deck.
Yeah. It's 10 slides. And some investors say, I only really want a one pager or six slides. Right. But that's like where I get the most pushback. They're like, no, but I need to put this in and this in. Yeah. Uh, which is again, when I'll come back to that, think of it like a dating profile. You're just trying to get the meeting.
So going out with too much information that's all about the business and the product rather than the the, um. Context [00:41:00] and the market, um, and the story. So, um, yeah, that would be my, my, if any advice, like start with the problem slash like why you exist and then lead into your solution. Do not come out the gate with your solution.
Liz Nable: Yeah, so when, um, so inside the course I teach authentic storytelling. So for the purposes of the family story, I encourage my students or my clients to be really authentic about failure, if they've had failure. And in it obviously depends on what, in on what, you know, I don't, I don't like a woe is me founder story, but that you can certainly touch on failures to show resilience, to show experience, to show, um.
Integrity. How do you feel about sharing those? You know, because, I don't know, I guess maybe it's an Aussie thing as well. Like I feel cringey when someone just tells me how amazing they are and how their business is. This overnight success, it doesn't endear me to wanna take, go on their journey because it doesn't feel real.
[00:42:00] But maybe that's just because I'm a business owner as well. How do you feel about that in context of pitching for your, for your, um, for your audience?
Sarah-Jane Kurtini: I think more than anyone, investors are looking for people that have grit and determination and can push through. So I think E, those stories are super valuable for them.
Like they know that, you know, there is no such thing as a, you know, stellar story that does not have setbacks, and they are looking for founders who know how to deal with adversity, hardship, can pivot, make hard decisions. So I think like. In this case, it's even more of a reason to share. And again, it's not a pity, they don't want pity stories.
They want to know where you've struggled and how you've overcome. So that's that real like narrative arc, right? Like they really wanna be taken on the journey of how you've risen out of adversity and hardship and mistakes and failure and [00:43:00] what you learn from them. Um, so I think absolutely share that.
And of course, like in the initial deck, like reach out, you can maybe only really touch on that like. But have them ready to go. Like, 'cause that's what they're gonna be looking for. Like we talked about how much, um, emphasis they put on founders and how much they're investing in people. Like that's what they're gonna be trying to get out of you.
How much you understand this category, this market. Are they gonna bet on you to be able to push through and make a success of this despite all the adversity and hardship that is gonna come your way?
Liz Nable: Yeah.
Sarah-Jane Kurtini: Not like if is
Liz Nable: Yeah, exactly. Is will definitely come your way. Yes. I mean, some of the most successful businesses, um, or companies, startups, you know, I listen to a lot of podcasts, obviously.
You know, there's a particular company, um, called ClassPass, which is in the fitness industry. Yes. Um. I don't love their model, full disclosure, because I run fitness businesses, right? I think they, they work in opposition to [00:44:00] small business. However, I've listened to a really in depth podcast, went for like 90 minutes with the founder and she basically open, Slatter says they pivoted or basically reinvented the business 12 times before they could get it, making money properly and scaling it.
And again, as much as I don't. Agree with what they do, just because I personally, it doesn't work with small businesses. Mm-hmm. I find mm-hmm. Really endearing to wanna follow their journey. Um, because I think, wow, that, that's perseverance right there to continue on with the product That's. After, you know, one iteration after another, not working until you get it working.
To me, that shows immense resilience and, you know, intelligence and tenacity to, to continue to do that. And now it's huge business. It's just been acquired by mindbody, so she's done really, really well. Yeah, for all intents purposes, for a long [00:45:00] time it didn't do well.
Sarah-Jane Kurtini: I also think it builds trust, which is the other signal they're looking for, right?
They, the last thing they want is someone that's gonna not tell them how it is and like the struggles that they're going through. Like those like investors are often the best place people to help you unpack like hard things and connect you with people that can help. And if they're not getting the story straight from you.
They can't help. Right. So actually glossing over things is like a, A helps destroy trust, right?
Liz Nable: Yeah.
Sarah-Jane Kurtini: And so they're like, they want to go on a journey with someone who's gonna tell them like what's going on, where the gaps are, where they need help. Like that's also what they're looking for. So it helps build trust.
Yeah. Um. Yeah. Works on on so many levels and it's, when you were talking about ClassPass, it made me think of, I've just listened to a podcast about the air Wallach journey. Yeah. And how that was just like so many, like, I wouldn't even say failed attempts, but you know, lots of like. [00:46:00] Uh, learning, uh, adjusting, pivoting, rolling back, and now they've just, you know, crossed the billion dollar threshold.
Yeah. Incredible. A multi-billion dollar threshold. But yeah, made lots of things, you know, in hindsight you wouldn't have done, but it's all about like, keep on going. So, yeah.
Liz Nable: I mean, we could talk about this forever, but before I let you go, any sort of top tips, um, for I guess any listeners looking to learn more about pitching for investment or any sort of sort of simple insights, I guess, into where to get started learning how to tell your story in that way?
Sarah-Jane Kurtini: Oh, well now I just sound like I'm massively self-promoting, but you know, I should jump on it. Go for it. That's, that is literally what I built pitch lap for. So like the goal of it was, like I said, to help founders get feedback on their story and then rewrite it for them before they start building a deck.
So it will, like, I've written it with like an investor. Lens. So like, even [00:47:00] though this might not be what they say, this is probably what they're thinking. And it will give you that brutal feedback and help shape it. So even if you don't choose bitch lap, um, which we'll do it for you and it's free, um, the, the tip is I would.
Start with nailing the story and the narrative you want to tell before you start getting in writing those slides. Because often that's where he starts to get, what should I put on page three and four? And that's where people often forget that you are talking to a human, keep saying the same thing. You are talking to a human who wants to understand the background, what makes the market right for your product right now.
And you've got to take them on that journey. So start with story before you start with slides. That's my top tip. Yeah.
Liz Nable: So I'm gonna self-promote for you. Um, okay. So Pitch Life is a GPT that you've built that's free, that I can pop in the show notes and that yes, you can to help train themselves, um, or get better insights into how to shape those [00:48:00] pitch decks.
Is
Sarah-Jane Kurtini: that correct?
Liz Nable: Yes. Yes.
Sarah-Jane Kurtini: Yeah, that's absolutely what it is. And what most people do is they'll do it the first time and they won't put all the information in and they'll. Slap really hard. Yeah. And then you can take the output that it's given, but because it hasn't had probably exactly the right information, you're probably like, well, it hasn't quite nailed it.
Just copy and paste that right back in and it will keep slapping it until you've got somewhere that feels right for you. So it's that normal GPT ai, you know, chicken out.
Liz Nable: So it's like, pardon you, it like slaps you and says, that's not good enough. Start again. I love that. Yeah, that sounds what it does it, it
Sarah-Jane Kurtini: will roast you, then rewrite and the only concession I had to make, so I put it out there to start with and then I got a few people.
Weirdly after what we talked about with cultural difference, like all these people that said sj, it's mean and it's not funny, happened to be in the States. And I was like, oh, maybe there's like my British sarcasm. Like I, I've just got the wrong notes, but I'm like, there's nothing funny about making people feel bad, right?
The whole, the [00:49:00] idea was to make them laugh, give them feedback, and then we write it. But I'm like, okay, some days you're just not in the mood for it. And I got the best quote. This woman said, I need my shit sandwich with so much white bread that I can't taste the meat. So now pitch lap has three modes.
There's brutal and sassy, there's candid, and then there's shit sandwich. So if you're not quite feeling it, it will go a bit gently on you. Most people are choosing the brutal feedback, but yeah, it's supposed to be done in like a, a, a funny way. So it will tear your answer down, but then rewrite it for you.
'cause I'm like, I want to get people to a better place. Like that was part of what I wanted to do, to give back. To people. So yeah, you'll get a full rewrite, but you can keep doing it again and again till it, till you, you get it where you want it.
Liz Nable: Love. I love that it's got an attitude. I love that. I've got a similar gp.
It's got a big attitude. Well, this's so funny because I was working with an AI expert to build mine. It's called Gina, and it's a newsroom genie that helps you, um, come up with pitch ideas, concepts, angles in the media, right? She's been amazing. Like she's awesome. [00:50:00] But I never really realized until I started using it that that AI could, you could.
Train it or instruct it to have a certain persona or attitude. And I was like, oh my God, this is so rude. Like I can't believe. And so I said to her, you are being mean. Like, so, but it, I've obviously learned over the last sort of few months since I've been tweaking it that it was just me, that it was actually being told that's the way it had been set up.
So that. It's hilarious if it's someone who doesn't realize that, um, it's supposed to literally and figuratively be a pitch slap. So, um, I
Sarah-Jane Kurtini: love that. Oh my God. But I worry. So I've got this incredible mentor that I met whilst we were living and working in New York with tiny beans. She's probably one of the women that I most respect in the world, and I was telling her about it the other day and she was like, I'll try it for you.
And I was like, oh my God. Literally the thought of. Pitch. She is such an incredible businesswoman. And then I'm like, literally feel a bit like nauseous and anxious at the thought that I'm about to slap you because who the hell am I [00:51:00] to give you feedback? But she was like, let, let go on. I can't wait. And I haven't seen it come through yet, but I'm, I'm literally a bit nervous 'cause oh my gosh, I have no.
I have no notes for this woman. Like she is incredible. But um, so we'll see. Hopefully she's still talking to me. Course. Hopefully she's, hopefully she doesn't take it
Liz Nable: personally. Um, she's been really insightful. I love what you do. You're obviously very, very experienced, um, and successful businesswoman yourself, although it sounds like you would never admit that, but it sounds like you've had tremendous success and I really appreciate you coming on the show.
So, um, thank
Sarah-Jane Kurtini: you. It's been super fun. Thanks for having me.
Liz Nable: This episode of Media Magnet was brought to you by my signature group coaching program, the Media Masters Academy. The Media Masters Academy is a live online six week course taught by me and designed to teach you how to become your own publicist and give you exclusive access to pitch the country's top journalists and editors doors open just three times a year.
Check it [00:52:00] out@liznabel.com, along with a ton of free resources to help you get started taking your business from best kept secret to household name. Right now, if you love this episode of Media Magnet, please share it with your business buddies or on social media and tag me at at Liz Naval. And if there's a specific guest you wanna hear from on the show or a topic or question you want to know more about, please tell me so I can make sure the show stays dedicated, especially for you.
